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  1. #1
    Raptor Bait Colsra's Avatar
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    Suspicions about Spinosaurus

    Alright, so... Spinosaurus is one of my favourite dinosaurs, if not my #1 favourite. And quite frankly, I like the idea of quadruped spino. However... I thought there were a couple things that looked strange about it. This isn't me complaining, because once again I said I was a fan of the idea, but something seems... odd.





    The back legs look very thin in bone structure compared to the rest of the body and upper arms. They also seem rather small. If it is true spinosaurus had shorter legs (which would make sense for better swimming posture) I think they would look much different. The sail also seems a bit awkward, not because there's two bumps but because it seems like some are almost too long to be in the right position. Not sure how to describe it, but.

    If someone could, please educate me. It's something that's puzzled me for a while, and I want to draw spino but i'm not sure how accurate everything is. I also know spino's bones were dense, but could it really hold itself on it's hands?

  2. #2
    I might have misunderstood what I gathered but from that it has been said that Spino could have totally been bipedal still, I believe it has been reafirmed that the legs were't that comically small.
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  3. #3
    Raptor Bait Colsra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RahuStalker View Post
    I might have misunderstood what I gathered but from that it has been said that Spino could have totally been bipedal still, I believe it has been reafirmed that the legs were't that comically small.
    I heard that it was from some sort of juvenile, from a different bone bed.

  4. #4
    Philosoraptor Toametru's Avatar
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    If Spino really had legs that short, it would either fall flat on its tail, or have to crawl using its arms.

    Edit: Doing a bit of off-field research, I was reminded that Spinosaurus was a front heavy therapod, and therefore too much weight would be sitting on top of it's knuckles. You can even see for yourself that it does not look like the hands are adapted for knuckle walking, but rather for grabbing fish. Hence, I further strengthen my rejection of the croco-duck Spinosaurus.

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  5. #5
    Gold Member Flishster's Avatar
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    The legs were scaled correctly, as discussed by Hartman later in his blog, I believe.

    Also, IIRC, the sail's actual position is not full determined and I would not be surprised if it sat much farther back on the tail so the animal could walk without dragging its arms on the ground.


    This
    skeletal is a good example. The sail has been pushed back here significantly, shifting the center of mass to the hips.
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  6. #6
    Spinosaurus probably walked like a pangolin, which has very similar proportions but was still a biped. It would've looked goofy as all get-out, but it would've still been able to walk just fine. Also, it physically couldn't have been a quadruped without crushing its own breastbone.

  7. #7
    Philosoraptor Toametru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Wallace View Post
    Spinosaurus probably walked like a pangolin, which has very similar proportions but was still a biped. It would've looked goofy as all get-out, but it would've still been able to walk just fine. Also, it physically couldn't have been a quadruped without crushing its own breastbone.
    This is more the direction I was hoping to convey. I would imagine Spinosaurus would not have as large legs as other therapods, but it would be large enough for it to still have bipedal motion.

    As for what Flishter said, I honestly doubt they were scaled correctly. Refer to some of my earlier reasons as to why it would not have been a quadraped animal.

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  8. #8
    Hybrid Spinodontosaurus's Avatar
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    The legs were found intact and with a couple of vertebrae that allow for cross-scaling with other Spinosaurus specimens. They are indeed that short, although you are partially correct in that these remains are believed to have come from a sub-adult animal.
    This is further supported by material referred to as "Spinosaurus B", which for over half a century was regarded as a chimera; the femur (upper leg) was so small relative to the vertebrae it was found with there was no way it could have come from the same animal as the vertebrae. Or so we thought, because it turns out that the "Spinosaurus B" material is extremely close in proportions to the new remains described last year.

    Although the legs are short they are still quite heavily built it has to be said; if you put it next to a Tyrannosaurus femur of equivalent length it will look quite impressive.

    The questions about the mount shouldn't be directed at the legs but rather everything else. The scaling of the tail, torso, neck and skull seems suspect, the placement of certain vertebrae also seems off, which is probably part of the reason the scaling seems off too. Scott Hartman's now-outdated skeletal is probably closer to the mark in this regard, although the neck is probably wrong (and the legs definitely are):
    http://static1.squarespace.com/stati...g?format=1000w

    Knuckle-walking is very controversial, and there has not been enough evidence put forward to support it. In fact the only evidence put forward is that the Centre of Mass of the new model is too far forward to support a conventional bipedal stance. The thing is, Spinosaurus is not the only theropod where this applies, because the same is true of therizinosaurids. What therizinosaurids do to overcome this is adopt a reared-up posture, this along with other quirks of Spinosaurus' anatomy lead Andrea Cau to propose it too held a reared-up pose.

    He also proposes that this 'pelican pose' explains the following:

    • Head posture and musculature
      The back of the skull is not known for Spinosaurus. However, it's close relative Irritator is, and it implies the head was held at quite a dramatic angle relative to the ground. The 'pelican pose' allows Spinosaurus to achieve this head orientation.
      Furthermore, it has been found on at least two occasions that spinosaurids, and spinosaurines in particular have upper jaws that are very strong in vertical (up/down) terms, but not horizontal (side-to-side). This lead to it being proposed that spinosaurines hunted with quick, precise bites from above - something that the 'pelican pose' easily allows.
    • Tall Neural Spines
      In this pose, the tall neural spines serve as a perfect anchor point for the ligaments that are used to hold the head in such an elevated position, with minimal muscle effort.
    • 'U'-shaped neck seen in "Sigilmassasaurus"
      The recent findings have sunk "Sigilmassasaurus" into Spinosaurus, and "Sigilmassasaurus" is known for bizarre cervical (neck) vertebrae that appear to form a sort of 'U' shape at the very base of the neck. Even without the 'pelican pose' this would force the head into a very elevated position (because the middle part of the neck would be point straight upwards).


    Link the Cau's original article (use Translate to English option):
    http://theropoda.blogspot.co.uk/2014...io-iv-una.html

    And an image from a different, follow-up article comparing Spinosaurus to fellow weirdo Deinocheirus:
    http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-iRwunD5-Gx...vs%2Bdeino.jpg

    Note that those two are only distantly related yet both posses large forelimbs, tall neural spines, an elongate head and a reared-up posture. It gets even cooler when you realise that both of them are also proven piscivores - talk about convergent evolution!

    I made auditions for Triceratops, Sinocalliopteryx, Tropeognathus and Utahraptor here.

  9. #9
    Raptor Bait Colsra's Avatar
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    aaah *-* thanks so much for the info, guys. I really appreciate it.

  10. #10
    I can't really blame you on your confusion, many more up-to-date representations show the spino with legs that, while small, are of believable proportions for the pangolin walk theory at least. The position of the legs in the skeleton photo makes it confusing and the 'sample' art does show them as too disproportionate for bipedal motion.
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  11. #11
    Philosoraptor Evan Chojnowski's Avatar
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    I found these interesting and enjoyable. have at it.

    edit- just saw how small the last pic is. sorry
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  12. #12
    Hybrid Spinodontosaurus's Avatar
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    ^The second skeletal was made before the new material was properly published, which is why the pelvic girdle and neck don't match the new material.

    I made auditions for Triceratops, Sinocalliopteryx, Tropeognathus and Utahraptor here.

  13. #13
    Spinosaurus are pretty amazing, and I think the scaling is definitely off.

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